Talk:Abu Shusha massacre

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From VfD:

Re: Abu Shusha massacre
This page is a stub and has not changed since December 2003. Due to lack of easily available information, it is likely to stay this way. There are many similar pages linked from List of massacres committed during the 1948 Arab-Israeli war, List of villages destroyed during the 1948 Arab-Israeli war, List of massacres committed during the Al-Aqsa Intifada and probably similar pages that I was so far lucky enough to not have run into. I chose Abu-Shusha as an example. Gadykozma 01:22, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

  • Keep, unless no useful information can be found. I don't think it is appropriate to list stubs on this page just because they are stubs. Cleanup would be a more appropriate place. --Zero 09:53, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC) I changed my vote, see below.
    • I assumed all votes would appear on the subpage, but this one doesn't. Is that a bug, or just something I don't understand? Gadykozma 17:45, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)
      • Your entry and the one above it, which were part of the VfD page, have now been moved to this one. (There, only users reading the VfD page saw them along with the others; here they are seen by users using either method of reading this discussion.) You made the small, easy, and often harmless mistake of clicking on "[edit]" instead of "Add to this discussion". If you again click on "[edit]" in the section of Wikipedia:Votes for deletion where you posted, and read the whole edit pane, you'll find the following:
<!-- You are about to edit the main VfD page. Please go back and use the "Add to this discussion" link to add your vote or comment. -->
which is the markup for a Wiki comment. (Since it is a comment, you don't see it when you read the page, but only when you read the edit pane.) No one expects you to read all the markup in the edit pane, but usually people notice it when they are about to edit right next to it, and go back and use the other link. You were the victim of the person who edited it before you, and didn't notice and follow the link as we hope editors will do; once there was an existing entry between the comment and the bottom of the page (where you added your entry), it was almost inevitable you'd also not take the opportunity to go back and use the other link, so don't feel too bad. [smile]--Jerzy(t) 03:53, 2004 Aug 11 (UTC)
  • Keep: A stub by itself doesnt meet the criteria for deletion. Nor does it mean much that you can supernaturally predict that it will remain that way unto perpetuity. It may make sense to merge these into a single list, but then you have to accept the possibility that these will develop in to articles, sometimes slowly and at the author's pace. -SV 18:27, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)
  • Merge & Delete: I have no interest in the factuality of the entry. Rather, I think what stub information there is here should be merged back into a page that covers the whole list. (N.b. I'm in favor of allowing the NPOV information, but not having a series of stubs that don't reward clicking on them from the list. (E.g. If you're at "List of Intifada Battles" and click on "The Big Battle" and get text saying, "The big battle was a battle in the Intifada," there wasn't much point.)) SV and I are using the very same logic, I know, to reach opposite conclusions: I'd rather they stayed as paragraphs on a list until they needed to break out. Geogre 18:54, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)
    • Keep. I agree that the information should be merged, but I also think that the stub should remain. If a Wikipedian comes along who knows more about the subject, I think they will be much more inclined to expand on the stub due to the fact that it is a stub than undertake the (sometimes daunting) task of creating a new article. The stub has value. I think it should remain. Skyler 01:37, Aug 11, 2004 (UTC)
  • Merge and delete. Cutler 23:05, Aug 10, 2004 (UTC)
  • I change my vote to Merge and redirect Gadykozma 06:17, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)
  • I changed my vote to delete after looking in the standard sources (Morris, Khalidi) for information on this subject. Abu Shusha was an Arab village of about 1000 people in Palestine until it was depopulated and partly destroyed in May 1948 by the Zionist/Israeli forces. A Jewish village was then established at that place. This much of the story makes it about the same as a couple of hundred other Arab villages. There were some reports that a massacre of Arabs took place there at the time of depopulation, but there doesn't seem to be the solid evidence that is required before one could definitely say that it happened. Therefore this page does not deserve to exist with this title. --Zero 11:53, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)
  • In this case I'll change my vote again. Its either plain delete, or rewrite to reflect that these are rumors, merge with the list, and then delete. Gadykozma 15:08, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep. Controversy involves historically and culturally significant events. It is our job to keep its content NPOV through editing. Davodd 20:25, Aug 11, 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep. Agree with Davodd. --Dittaeva 21:58, 14 Aug 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete. To someone coming to this topic with no knowledge, this articles offers no enlightenment whatsoever. To someone familiar with the incident, this article offers no new perspectives. Unless it does more than say "on this date, some (unspecified) event happened", I don't believe it merits space. Denni 20:19, 2004 Aug 15 (UTC)

end moved discussion

action to be taken[edit]

Since the attempt at deletion failed, I propose to replace this article by one called just "Abu Shusha" with a mention of the claims about a massacre. The present name can remain as a redirect. I'll write a first draft today or tomorrow. If anyone has objections, please speak up now. --Zero 23:51, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

You should somehow handle the link from List of massacres committed during the 1948 Arab-Israeli war too. And the link from List of villages destroyed during the 1948 Arab-Israeli war. Gadykozma 05:56, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)